Shannon: [00:00:00] Quick note about today’s episode. We will be covering some disturbing topics. Viewer discretion is advised.
Jacob: These dogs are worth a lot of money. You know, you can, you can fetch upwards of 50, 000 for a, for a fighting dog, you know, that’s, and you know, the more wins the better. So, you know, if I’m a dog fighter and, and I want to show off, I go to a pedigree registry website, I put my dog on.
I can show other people in my community, um, you know, that I have the best dog.
Shannon: Welcome to Needlestack. I’m Shannon Regan.
Aubrey: And I’m Aubrey Byron. Today we’re discussing the use of OSINT to prevent animal crime.
Shannon: And [00:01:00] joining us for that discussion is Jacob Lloyd, head of investigations at Animal Welfare Investigations Project. Jacob, welcome to the show.
Jacob: Ah, thank you for having me. It’s great to, uh, great to discuss this topic.
Shannon: Lovely. Well, on a, on a sad note, we know that there are horrible cases of animal abuse and neglect carried out around the world every day, but your organization is particularly focused on organized animal crime and using OSINT to tackle that. First, what is organized animal crime?
Jacob: Yeah. Um, so we cover everything from dog fighting through to other animal fighting offenses, such as cock fighting, um, the digging out of, of badgers and wildlife, uh, all the way through to puppy mills and, and the selling of sick puppies.
So we cover sort of a broad breadth, um, to summarize it’s probably [00:02:00] the commercial, um, context of animal cruelty in a commercial and, um, economic context, you know, making money out of something or having entertainment from the suffering of something. Um, that’s probably the easiest way to describe it.
Aubrey: Can you talk a little bit about, you know, why you felt the need to start this organization and the void it’s filling?
Like, you know, Why isn’t law enforcement sort of equipped to handle these types of investigations?
Jacob: Yeah, great question. I mean, I’ve been involved in this for about 12 years. Um, so it’s, it’s a long time and unfortunately not much has changed. Um, so, so several years ago, Uh, I, I decided that we need to, um, do more proactive investigations, um, and we need to assist law enforcement to understand how to do those proactive investigations.
And so So yeah, that’s why we were started. Um, [00:03:00] you know, because I recognize that that wasn’t happening. Um, I think that in terms of the barrier as to why law enforcement are not doing them, I think it’s a lack of training and a lack of awareness. Definitely not a lack of will. Definitely not. I speak to so many great law enforcement officers who really want to work on these cases.
And unfortunately, I’m not giving the training. And the, um, the, the resources, uh, to, to, to deal with them.
Shannon: I know you mentioned too, that, and this might be different, um, in the U S versus other places about the world that oftentimes animal crime or animal cruelty is treated as like a. Kind of an extra after another investigation that it’s like you’re in, uh, you know, investigating drug trafficking or human trafficking.
And then this is kind of the add on after that. It’s like, Oh, they’re also, you know, running dog fights or something like that. Could you talk about kind of the nature of the [00:04:00] interdependence of, of these types of investigations or what investigating animal crime could actually lead to?
Jacob: Uh, I’ll give you a good example in, in our intelligence collection, uh, in the last several years.
Roughly around, I would say, 90 percent of individuals, um, that we have identified as potential dogfighters, um, have previous history, criminal history, for, um, drug trafficking, human trafficking, um, CSE, child abuse, you know, and so on and so forth. So I think that shows the statistic in and of itself shows the interdependence between certain crime types and, and how, um, criminals will shift depending on where resources are placed, for example, during COVID.
We saw an increase in sick puppies being sold. Um, we did, um, analyze [00:05:00] the individuals that were selling these puppies. Um, and as a whole, again, roughly around 90%, it may have even been higher, um, were individuals that had previous history for drugs. My theory is that they move into this. Area of criminality, and that’s just exactly what it is.
It’s another area of criminality does it you can change the commodity. It could be animals. It could be drugs. It could be firearms,
You know, whatever it is, you can change the commodity. But, but I my suspicion. The reason why they move into this area is because it is quite low risk because not many people are looking at it. It’s very high reward. That’s my theory.
Shannon: Such a shame.
Jacob: Well…
Shannon: it seems like you’re very passionate about animal protection. Uh, of course, did you get into this field of investigation purely because of that? Or did you have an OSINT background that you were then [00:06:00] applying to this passion?
Jacob: Well, the passion came first.
Um, you know, so, uh, in, in my childhood, um, my, my grandmother would rescue wildlife and, you know, and so we, you know, I was brought up with animals. I’m an only child. So, uh, so my dog was my was my sister. Um, so, you know, that’s the interaction I have of animals. So passion, passion first, um, moving into my late teens, early twenties.
Um, I ended up in an investigation role, um, where I used, uh, intelligence gathering techniques and open source was one of them. Um, and then I thought how wonderful it would be to proactively work on investigations, you know, um, using OSINT and other intelligence connection technique to really make an impact for animals.
And, and I think just to add, sorry, just to add to, to be there [00:07:00] before the crime even happens, you know, to, or to know when the crime is going to happen for me is so important, you know, for so long, law enforcement agencies, animal welfare organizations, we’ve come too late. Um, you know, and, and I want to change that.
I want to change the playing field. You know, if you’re an animal abuser, no, that the playing foot has changed. We’re going to treat you like you’re a drug dealer. We’re going to treat you like you’re a human trafficker. Um, that’s what I want the, you know, the dynamics to be.
Aubrey: Can you elaborate a little bit about that and how you’re being proactive? Um, How, how can you use kind of open source information specifically to stop these crimes before they occur or realize that they’re going to occur?
Jacob: Yeah, open source intelligence is the key fundamental part of our intelligence collection process that leads into our evidential investigation. [00:08:00] So, at the very early stages, we’re looking at lifestyle profiling, you know, completely understanding what these people are doing, what they’re involved in, who their associates are, who their connections are.
We’re downloading their social media videos where they’ve shared. You know, you’d be amazed at the things that these people post, right? And, you know, so we’re downloading those, we’re, we’re creating evidential packages out of those. Um, we’re then combining that with on the ground generally, we’re combining that with on the ground surveillance.
Um, and then further enforcement action down the line.
Aubrey: I was just going to say, do you have any examples of those kind of things that people post that you would be shocked to see?
Jacob: Uh, in terms of, you know, what, what people are posting to give you an example.
Yeah. Okay. I, I, I was looking, um, at, uh, uh, an individual that we’re investigating at the [00:09:00] moment, uh, earlier on today, and he was posting. Um, videos of deer that, that were being attacked by dogs. You know, they, the deer was, was screaming, um, in pain. It was still alive. Um, which for me is just horrific, um, you know, the, the, the depravity that, that an individual must have in order to want to inflict pain, um, and film it even worse.
You know, you want to, you want to film something and put it on the internet to be shared. And the sad reality is it’s a bit like an echo chamber. So, you know, this, this TikTok account actually has loads of followers, loads of comments. And great for us because we can then look at these people and investigate them too.
But, um, you know, but this is the sick depravity of the people that we, um, we’re dealing with. [00:10:00]
Shannon: Yeah. I think, you know, again, kind of to our conversation ahead of the call, like, I certainly didn’t realize how out in the open this is like, it is absolutely illegal, but it is not even on the dark web. Like it is social media.
The, um, pedigree registrars, I think was one of the most like, Oh my God, like this is absolutely treated like a business and a business on the surface web. Um, could you talk a little bit about what the pedigree registrars are in, uh, terms of, of dogfighting.
Jacob: Yeah, yeah. I mean, the pedigree registers are interesting, um, because they give us generational history.
Um, they give us, uh, access to who owns these dogs. These dogs are worth a lot of money. Um, you know, you can, you can fetch upwards of 50, 000 for a, for a fighting dog, you know, that’s, and you know, the more wins, the better. So, you know, [00:11:00] if I’m a dog fighter and, and I want to show off, I go to a pedigree registry website.
I put my dog on. I can show other people in my community. Um, you know that I have the best dog, um, he’s worth a lot of money and if you want a puppy from that dog, you’re going to pay the price for that too. So it’s, it’s, it’s a way to showcase, um, that’s not what they were intended for. And I should add that, you know, and not everybody on a pedigree registry who registers their dog, um, are dog fighters, but unfortunately they have been manipulated for that purpose.
Shannon: Yeah, yeah, you talked about like the some of the lingo or like codes that they word for like how many wins, um, or other kind of terms that cue you into like, and the pictures of the dogs are also like, oh, my God, I would never want to encounter that dog, uh, on the wrong, the wrong day. Um, That it is like, this is what this dog has been bred for.
Jacob: There is a subculture. Yeah, [00:12:00] there’s definitely a subculture. Um, there is specific lingo that, um, dog fighters use. Um, you know, and, and we have to stay on top of that because it changes regionally. It changes between different groups. It changes. Um, you know, and, and, and we’re also seeing new things all the time.
Um, you know. A year ago, a year or so ago, I, I would have said to you the likelihood of a puppy being, you know, used for, for baiting, for example, to train and a more experienced dog on. I would have said, I don’t think we’ve ever seen that before. Um, a recent case, federal case in the United States revealed a puppy that was, uh basically tortured to death, um, you know, and then was, um, decapitated, um, and was showcased online, um, to basically say there was a [00:13:00] caption that said this dog is useless. So we have to keep on top of these trends, uh, as well, you know, so it’s, it’s about understanding the lingo. The subculture and then the trends and then even the subcultures within the subculture.
Um, you know, it’s, it’s all of that coming together.
Aubrey: That’s terrible. Um, at what point do you think that it’s, What you were just describing reminds me very much of the documentary Don’t Fuck With Cats. Um, Yeah, I love it.
Shannon: Do not
Aubrey: Yeah, he started off torturing cats and then eventually escalated to people. At what point do you think that that is a precursor to other forms of violence or crime?
Jacob: Yeah, I mean, I absolutely agree that that this is a precursor to, to violent crime. Um, and, and actually I wouldn’t even say it’s a precursor. It’s interconnected. Um, you know, so, so, you know, and we’ve actually seen, for example, some of the individuals [00:14:00] we’re currently investigating, they, they, um, they have violence as teenagers.
They have violence towards other people and they realize that they’re going to get arrested for these offenses if they continue in adulthood, you know, and be punished more severely, perhaps by the criminal system. So they go and torture animals instead, you know, and this is, this is what happens. Um, so, yeah, it, there is definitely a link, um, domestic violence, you know, there is a link between, uh, animal abuse and the abuse of women.
Um, in not just women, men too, but predominantly women in domestic violence situations.
Aubrey: So can you talk a little bit about the side of working with law enforcement? Once you find this information, how do you get it to them? And are there special ways you need to package it so it holds up in court?
Jacob: Yeah. Um, I mean, it depends on, on jurisdictions in the [00:15:00] UK. Uh, we’re very lucky to have the, um, anybody in the UK has the power to prosecute.
Um, privately in the UK. So it’s, it’s kind of useful. Um, so we’re able to bring prosecutions ourselves. Um, which is, which is great. Um, and then in the U S we predominantly share information and intelligence with federal, local and state agencies. Um, in terms of how do we make sure it stands up? We have, um, as in, as investigators, there’s a team we, we have Uh, a bit of a policy from very early on that we treat everything as if it’s going to go to a prosecution.
So we’re maintaining metadata. We’re maintaining hashed files. Um, we’re logging using software tools that we have, um, you know, maintaining exactly how you would a criminal investigation for any other type of crime. Um, so yeah, we maintain that whole continuity trail.
Shannon: [00:16:00] Well, this has been an enlightening discussion.
It’s, it’s so good, you know, that you and your organization are doing this work and it’s just addressing like such a, a dark and seemingly kind of gateway problem into other criminality. Um, before we wrap up, I, I was just curious, do you have any parting thoughts or, uh, words of advice for people that are interested in applying OSINT to, uh, protect animals?
Jacob: Yeah. I mean, you know, This work is emotionally taxing, so be prepared for it. Um, you know, maintaining your mental health while staying focused on the mission is so important. And, and so, you know, if you’re going to get into doing this, just be very self aware of, you know, of your limits. And also be able to critically think and analyze.
Um, you know, what you’re seeing objectively, um, you know, so trying to balance that emotion with objectivity is [00:17:00] difficult. So my advice would be if you can master those two things, um, I’d love to hear from you. We’ve just launched a, uh, an OSINT volunteering program. Um, so I would love to hear from you, if you can master those things. You’re on the list. We need more people.
Shannon: Love it. Where can, where can folks find you? We’ll link to it in the show notes.
Jacob: Yeah. So find me on LinkedIn, uh, Jacob Lloyd on LinkedIn. Find me on there and reach.
Shannon: Wonderful. Well, Jacob, thank you so much for being on today and thanks to our audience for listening. You can view transcripts and other episode info on our website, authentic8.com/needlestack. That’s authentic with a number eight dot com slash needlestack. And be sure to let us know your thoughts on X and Bluesky at @needlestackpod and to like and subscribe wherever you are tuning in today and we’ll see you next time.
Jacob: Thank you so much. [00:18:00] Bye.
